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Anon
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Margrae's little problem.

Being update to & continuation from SOS thread in General Chat http://www.bedford-cf.co.uk/mboard/thread.php?id=7794

First, much thanks to everyone that has offered help; events have dictated a somewhat different approach to fitting a GM 2.3D or slant 2.3 & 5-speed ZF though, as you will see.

The problem

A Frontera 2.8TD + MT75 gearbox fitted without due regard to structural integrity starting with a big bit hacked out of the front axle beam & sort of covered over with a patch blobbed on with sparrowsh1t welds covered over with thick underseal (likewise all the welding of engine mounting supports etc.) -



Van had to be jacked up bit by bit under the wishbones because the axle beam bends before the front wheels lift off the ground. How it got through MoT test with the beam chopped so close to the steering rack supports beats me.





There could be a weld or two underneath all the exhaust paste. Maybe.



Um. Gearbox mounting is a bit of a lash-up.





Steering rubber coupling barely 10mm from the exhaust downpipe.



Cross member and much else chopped out of the front panel to fit radiator, fan blades leading edges cut down to clear & cap minus a lug so that it can be removed at all with being so close to the grille. Radiator mountings consisted of cable ties to the plastic of the front grille.





Electronic pump management missing; much of the Frontera engine wiring isn't connected up anyway.

Once the engine was running it sounded like it was operating at maximum advance & maximum fuel - well rattly & a lot of smoke on turbo boost: felt like wouldn't take much going wrong with the injection pump for the engine to run away & blow up.



New front shock absorbers don't look quite right: usually really fat ones for heavy duty suspension that the van left the factory with.



Cab floor butchered & bulkhead carved out to clear turbo, just: could barely get my size 7 boot in sideways to the clutch pedal with the cab engine cover in place.

Miracle #1

Donor vehicle, a combination of pre-1976 Perkins 4.154 engine & TK gearbox in a 1983 chassis cab. Incidentally, the seller has his own tidy looking CF1 twin rear wheel camper so I told him about CF-UK of course and while I was there spotted what was wrong with the fuel system on its GM 2.3D engine & mailed him the info he needed to get it starting, which he has done now.

















No starter motor



Tin can over the dipstick tube!

What struck me when I first saw the chassis cab was that the Perkins engine & TK box were CF way through & apart from the facelift/CF2 radiator fan cowl being offset from the Perkins fan the installation looks right, as if someone had known what they were about. Indeed, despite looking a wreck there's not much wrong with the vehicle as a whole apart from the cab inside & the dash being untidy, a bit of rot along the bottom back edge of the cab and no foot brake (pedal gone solid).

Miracle #2

It all came together when I spotted a starter on ebay on Sunday, a NOS Lucas recon unit that's exactly right for the Perkins 4.154.



I was so gobsmacked that I bought it straight away - rare as an outright buy (rather than recon with old unit returned) - then realised that the seller was John Cooper & Sons in Leeds where the CF with Perkins engine is now. Duh! However, by late Sunday night they'd replied to my request for counter collect & Monday got to be the day for commissioning the Perkins engine.

Apart from a bit of fettling - a new battery lead terminal, check the battery & engine earths, fix the wiring for the starter, add a jump lead to the thermostart element (no switch fitted for cold start) - it was a case of change the engine oil, new fuel filter & poke the fuel tank hose into some fresh diesel to flush out & vent the fuel system, pressure test the cooling system & tighten a couple of bolts then bolt on the starter (easier said than done - heavy thing, has to go in from underneath). Dipstick is missing, accelerator linkage between cable & pump needs sorting, there's no stop cable & the oil pressure switch is duff but they can wait along with changing the oil fiter. I slipped up & got the wrong oil filter with not thinking to cross-reference the GM part number. Bloomin' obvious when I looked properly at the filter housing on the engine!

When it came to turning the ignition key the starter cranked the engine so that it danced on its mountings - good compression - & once the thermostart flamed (took a while for fuel to bleed through to the electrical element) the engine started & ran sweet straight away with b-all exhaust smoke & no alarming noises or any excess fume coming from the engine ventilation.

Just about everything works including the exhauster for the brake servo. What did surprise me was that once the engine warmed up a bit the temperature gauge worked - it's facelift/CF2 dash with voltage regulator for the gauges & the sender in the Perkins engine would have been for CF1 gauge with no voltage regulation.

The only things that I've found worth worrying about were a bearing noise that turned out to be the alternator (Lucas unit though - easy peasy) and oil leaking from the clutch housing where the clutch cable goes through. The clutch operation is light & the TK gearbox doesn't baulk in first or reverse & from underneath the clutch doesn't look that old. If I'd had more time I could have jacked up the back end to try the box through the gears but the box doesn't rumble from the front bearing so that's promising.

Anyway, I took off the clutch housing bottom cover to have a look at the crankshaft rear seal, to find the cover awash with oil for having its drain hole blocked with crud: enough oil in there for the flywheel ring gear to dip in it & throw it about. Luckily the clutch hasn't been splashed. However, the crankshaft seal isn't leaking now: probably something to do with there being no dipstick & ~9 litre of oil drained, 5.5 litre to refill! (The seal is like the slant engine one, packings around a scroll on the crankshaft: works when the engine runs but drips all the time if oil floods it when the engine is standing). EDIT. CF slant crank has an oil slinger in front of the rear seal but no scroll.

So, once I've checked the Perkins engine cylinder compression (it was a bit late to start doing that on the Monday) & margrae's van is next to the chassis cab there's a bit of work to do ... but I think the only major issue left will be the propellor shaft rear section; the TK Layrub coupling front end is fine but margrae's van is 140-inch wheelbase, not 126-inch.

Even if rear axle ratio of margrae's van is wrong for the Perkins (her van started life with a 2.3 slant) the chassis cab started with a 2.3 GM diesel so its rear axle ratio should be good for the Perkins engine & with a bit of luck the TK speedo drive could be the right one too.

That's it for now while margrae's van gets to Leeds.

To be continued.

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Tue 10 Nov 2009 @ 17:24 Edit this messageQuote this messagePMQuote this message
Anon
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I think its fantastic that you are able to help out.
What are the doors like on the donor? and would they fit my 1972 CF1?
That engine is possibly the worst install I have ever seen.

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Tue 10 Nov 2009 @ 17:41 Edit this messageQuote this messagePMQuote this message
Anon
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There's likely to be quite a bit of stuff left over once margrae has had what she needs: patience!

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Tue 10 Nov 2009 @ 17:54 Edit this messageQuote this messagePMQuote this message
Anon
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I like how you call it a little problem Phil,
Hate to think what you would call a BIG problem:o
looks like some one was handy with the gas axe though,
as for the rest no comment....:D

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Tue 10 Nov 2009 @ 18:35 Edit this messageQuote this messagePMQuote this message
Anon
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OMG Phil......

I feel so stupid now seeing all the faults....the van was mutilated and that makes me so sad and angry at the same time. I was so thrilled when I bought it the guy must have thought all his birthday's and christmases had come at once !! ( Autotrader advert)

Phil is incredible....he certainly has a real passion for what he does and is a great ambassador for what this club stands for.

When my van is fixed there should be bits that may help keep some other members vans going.

Margaret

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Tue 10 Nov 2009 @ 18:50 Edit this messageQuote this messagePMQuote this message
Anon
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Loving all the pics and indepth update - please can you post more pics as you go on. As a novice I'm finding all this really interesting (sorry Margarae).I can't believe that the van got through an MOT like that (did it really?) and didn't I read somewhere that some work was done on the brakes? Did the mechs there not notice the bodged engine structure or pass any comment? If I lived closer I would offer to help out too (albeit only spanner passing maybe) but best of luck with it all.

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Tue 10 Nov 2009 @ 18:55 Edit this messageQuote this messagePMQuote this message
Anon
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So once you have all your bits, post whats left on here and if we all buy a bit it should help to recover some of the unexpected expenditure

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Tue 10 Nov 2009 @ 18:57 Edit this messageQuote this messagePMQuote this message
Anon
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Hi everyone

I am excited as the refit of engine etc has just begun.I am sure Phil will be posting some pictures of the work in progress. Any parts surplus to requirement will be dealt with at the end of the refit as I don't know what Phil will need off the donor van. There definately will be an izusu engine available !!


Margaret

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Thu 14 Jan 2010 @ 23:19 Edit this messageQuote this messagePMQuote this message
Anon
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The best place to offer the engine is on the Frontera owners club site, one of my mates would post it for you as he is a member, just let me know when and any details.
I will post it on Difflock.com as this is the biggest UK 4x4 forum

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Fri 15 Jan 2010 @ 06:49 Edit this messageQuote this messagePMQuote this message
Anon
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Good luck with it all!

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Fri 15 Jan 2010 @ 07:19 Edit this messageQuote this messagePMQuote this message
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winchman wrote:
The best place to offer the engine is on the Frontera owners club site, one of my mates would post it for you as he is a member, just let me know when and any details.
I will post it on Difflock.com as this is the biggest UK 4x4 forum

It's running but the engine management is missing bits.
I'll take some photos as it comes out.

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Fri 15 Jan 2010 @ 14:19 Edit this messageQuote this messagePMQuote this message
Anon
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Extracting Perkins engine

Into day 2 before any photos taken - day 1 was a late start dropping the engine & axle beam off as a lump with the wheels attached. First thing that got done was loosening the wheel nuts after which the van was jacked up & supported on stands under the lower wishbone fulcrum pins. Stands have rear spring U-bolt plates under each foot with the ground being gravel under the leaf mulch & snow.

Once the propellor shaft & exhaust were removed the gearbox cross member came off, gearbox supported on the jack then dropped onto a timber block once the mounting was off. The stands then were re-positioned under the cross member chassis brackets before disconnecting electrics, clutch & accelerator cables (air filter can removed), fuel lines, chassis brake pipes from flexy hoses.

The control rods rear nuts were removed along with the bolts holding the control rod front brackets to the axle beam. Once the axle beam chassis bolts were removed & the axle beam was dropped a few inches the control rods came out; axle beam then dropped down with the engine until it sat on its wheels.

Next day, once the engine was supported the wheels were removed & the axle came off on the trolley jack -



Note bulkhead engine aperture bent up on the left of this view; my guess is that someone managed to lift the van with the engine crane used to fit the Perkins engine...

A bit hairy relying on the wing edges for supporting the lifting beam; beam had to be lashed in place to prevent it slipping forwards (not necessary if rear mounting still in place) -



Then the engine was dropped onto the jack which was used to wheel the engine away from the van. Heavy lump though & not easy with the planks being sodden: had to hitch up the jack to the Volvo barge to drag the engine far enough from the van before improvising a way of getting the engine off the jack onto planks.



Oil filter had to come off to do this; centre bolt is just a bit too low to clear once the sump was flat on the planks.

Bulkhead needs everything off it next so that it can be carved up for the section that's been chopped about on Margrae's van (to clear the Frontera engine turbo) that's being reinstated for the cab engine cover to fit & seal; the Frontera lump is coming out first though.

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Fri 15 Jan 2010 @ 20:51 Edit this messageQuote this messagePMQuote this message
Anon
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Day 3 - taking apart Margrae's van

First thing: disconnect batteries; van battery is where it should be, in the cradle on the side of the chassis -



but the access aperture in the floor above has a seat bolted over it & to make life even more difficult the battery is the wrong hand, with terminal posts next to the chassis. Probably a good thing that the negative terminal wasn't even tight.

Leisure battery is in a purpose built tray in a cupboard in the back of the van & has quick release (wing nut) terminals -



(Until I'm certain of the wiring I don't like working on it with any battery connected; wiring can frizz a bit too quickly if there's a short circuit.)

Now the front wheel nuts -



Nearside (left side or kerb side) wheel nuts are left hand thread, clockwise to undo; wheel key is 1+1/16" AF (27mm is close); key & extension bars are Melco.

Next the front seats, partly because they're very nice ones & it would be a shame to mark them but mostly because they're in the way -



With the seats out & gear lever removed so that the engine cover could be removed (it wouldn't come out otherwise) -



then the rubber matting to reveal a layer of soggy carpet -



under which was a layer of sodden glass fibre insulation -



and finally the cab floor panel -



to which the seats should have been bolted & floor trim cut to fit afterwards. Thankfully the floor panel is still sound apart from where it's been butchered & a couple of small holes where edge finisher screws were fitted.

While the floor was drying out, round to the front & remove the bonnet -



disconnect radiator hoses, but the bottom hose was so squashed in that it wouldn't come off -



then the wiring for the front lights -



Sticky tape & twisted wires both sides for headlamp wiring...

Front panel had only 4 out of 6 bolts holding it in place -



& the radiator fell off when the 3 cable ties holding it to the plastic grille were cut.

Propellor shaft came off next, to find that the centre bearing mounting bracket has been moved -



Note cable ties holding up the exhaust.

Clutch cable 'adjuster' was a mess of nuts wedged onto the original 2.3 petrol cable that only came out of the clutch fork after the fork was levered forwards in the housing aperture to release the clutch -



Once the gearbox cross member fell off (well, not quite - 2 of the bolts were in ok) the gearbox wouldn't budge because the gear lever hole was too small so the sparrowsh1t welding company plate got chiselled off -



2 of the 'welds' weren't even stuck to the floor; less grinding to clean up I suppose...

When the gearbox came off & I had a look at what's been added to the engine plate to make the gearbox fit -



So, with the engine being supported on separate mountings welded (I use the term loosely) to the chassis, the axle was next to remove; control rods & chassis bracket bolts came out readily enough but the steering column coupling pinch bolt isn't easy to get at -



so out came the steering column -



I've no idea what the block of softwood is doing there either.

Once the tube is unbolted (& all switches removed, steering lock left on) it can be yanked upwards & off to leave the plastic lower bush on the shaft & the pinch bolt is a lot easier to get at; once that is out the shaft can be pulled upwards while the universal joint is bumped downwards -



The lower bush hadn't been doing much - the circlip below the thrust washer wasn't engaged in its groove (& that's full of rust).

Stands moved from up front to under the gearbox cross member mounting brackets & then the axle beam was dropped down & off with some curious groans & creaks along the way -



And the extent of the butchering -



Just the Frontera engine to remove now before assessing how much of the bulkhead & cab floor needs rebuilding.

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Sat 16 Jan 2010 @ 23:28 Edit this messageQuote this messagePMQuote this message
Anon
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how the hell, unbeliverable, how that passed an MOT:o

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Sun 17 Jan 2010 @ 02:33 Edit this messageQuote this messagePMQuote this message
Anon
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goodness me!!! What a mess! Amazing job - photos fab

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Sun 17 Jan 2010 @ 10:41 Edit this messageQuote this messagePMQuote this message
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Pete. H wrote:
how the hell, unbeliverable, how that passed an MOT:o

I think it's what happens when tester's tickets are given to anyone who can scrape through the multi-guess VoSA exam without having much (or any) understanding of motor vehicle technology. Prerequisite of having a full CGLI or NVQ cert to apply isn't a good starting point either because standards are too low & have been for far too long.

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Sun 17 Jan 2010 @ 11:04 Edit this messageQuote this messagePMQuote this message
Anon
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Hi

I have only info on MOT's from 2006

August 2006, test station in Grimsby
MOT fail due to ehaust emmisions and brake problem, subsequently passed a few days later.
Recorded as petrol engine and colour brown and white.

September 2007, test station in keighley
MOT Pass, advisory issued regarding NS front wheel bearing slight play
Colour of vehicle recorded as white.

December 2008, test station in Keighley
MOT Fail, NS mirror damaged.
Recorded as Diesel at that time.

Here is where I innocently come into the picture..

Dec 2009, test station in leeds
MOT Pass....
Not before spending almost £1000.....

Just tells me an MOT is not worth a jot......
I think even I could pass the required exams and be a tester !!

Margaret



[bat]

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Sun 17 Jan 2010 @ 12:53 Edit this messageQuote this messagePMQuote this message
Anon
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margrae wrote:
Dec 2009, test station in leeds
MOT Pass....
Not before spending almost £1000.....

That's definitely the iffy one; might be worth going back there to tell them that you're considering making a formal complaint to VoSA. There's enough evidence I think just in the photos of the axle beam but it would need an independent engineer's report to have any weight. The threat alone might get a response in your favour though.

Just tells me an MOT is not worth a jot......

Quite.

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Sun 17 Jan 2010 @ 13:47 Edit this messageQuote this messagePMQuote this message
Anon
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Def. I recently bought a new (to me) Mazda 323f. I, a little more confident looking round vehicles nowdays, felt that everything was fairly ok and it came with a 12 month MOT. Heard a squeak from the rear as soon as I drove off from the guy but took it straight round to my mech who said the squeak was nothing but that the rear discs and pads should never have gotten through the MOT. We went to the MOT station and he treatened to report them to the VOSA unless they acknowedged the error and changed them. They did. Hope they will be more careful next time.

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Sun 17 Jan 2010 @ 14:31 Edit this messageQuote this messagePMQuote this message
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hi

I found this MOT site, it states,

If you disagree with the MOT Test result
Firstly, discuss the problem with a qualified person at the Testing Station.

If you are still not happy, follow the instructions below – do not carry out any repairs yourself or let anyone else carry out repairs to your vehicle.

Incorrect Fail
Complete form VT17 – available from the Testing Station – or telephone the VOSA enquiry line (0300 123 9000.

Your appeal must be received within 14 days of the MOT Test being carried out. You will be required to pay VOSA a full Test fee. You will then be offered an appointment within 5 working days for VSA to re-examine you vehicle. If your appeal is successful some or all of the Test fee will be refunded to you.

Incorrect Pass
This may occur if you have bought a vehicle with a new, or recent, full MOT but the vehicle has faults for which it should have failed. Contact VOSA as soon as possible. VOSA will assess whether your complaint is valid (there are certain items which you may think are dangerous but which are not part of the MOT). If VOSA accept your complaint they will offer an appointment to view your vehicle within five working days, without charge, provided:

Not more than 3 months have elapsed since the time of the Test for a corrosion defect, or;
up to 28 days for other defects.


Waste of time I think.....but it has a forum so think I will post my tale of woe.

They also said,

An aspiring Tester also has to have either a certain minimum formal qualification or sit a special examination set by VOSA before then going on a two-day course set up by VOSA to, as they say “calibrate his or her skills”.


(Despite being ultimately fully responsible for all MOT Testing, VOSA have never published either a complete training programme or an approved syllabus to train MOT Testers).



So your local Testing station is in charge of the Tests they do, but the Government, through VOSA is responsible overall for the general quality of MOT Testing. To do this they have about 100 experts called Vehicle Examiners who spend much of their time monitoring the performance of NTs and AEs – but they also have other jobs as well. Not many people to keep an eye on nearly 20,000 Testing Stations and 50,000 Testers!

So there you have it !! Paying for peanuts only gets you monkeys.

People like Phil and all the rest of the unsung heroes here make up for all those others that would rob us blind and compromise our and our families safety.

I think they have a better system in Japan,

Similar to a new vehicle supplied in the UK a Japanese vehicle is registered with a 3 year MOT called a ‘Shaken’. Unlike the UK the shaken is extremely rigorous and can cost in excess of £2000. Further re-tests are required every two years costing around £1000, and because of the inconvenience and expense of re-testing many people prefer to buy new cars.

A bit expensive I know but the japenese demand a higher standard and they have very tough consumer laws.

Sorry to have gone on a bit but it just makes me mad......rip of Britain stikes again.



Margaret

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